There is a post on Debito.org describing someone’s experience trying to get married in Japan. The person concerned is posting to the thread, so I’ll reserve comment on that aspect. Instead, let’s look at Mr Arudou’s response:
My belief if that you got bum staff that day who don’t know what they’re doing (problem is, I don’t think the staff will change from day to day).
Surely he meant to write "My belief is that the racist Japanese elites don’t want gaijin blood polluting the Yamato genes (and foreigners shouldn’t marry Japanese anyway)." Or perhaps he doesn’t want to scare off the newbies?
My best suggestion is that you change ward offices
Sigh, passive activism. Why not suggest future hubbie talks to the front desk person’s manager, for instance?
More advice in our Handbook for Immigrants at http://www.debito.org/handbook.html
"Buy my book, buy my book!"
Then in his comment he says:
My impression from others has always been that it’s pretty easy to get married in Japan to a Japanese, period. Have things recently changed?
So why exactly should she buy his book since he doesn’t seem to be very aware of the whole marriage business?
Maybe the lawyer who co-wrote it had some good stuff to say.
But more to the point isn’t her fiancé underaged? Or was I missing something?
I thought debito.org’s message was “don’t get married to a Japanese”.
Isn’t this the ideal oportunity to take an activist stance and intervene to prevent this travesty before it’s too late?
Why doesn’t someone warn the poor girl??
In fact, here it is:
http://www.debito.org/?p=4878
Honestly, besides perhaps the “buy my book” line, I think these kind of cases is where Debito doesn’t do much wrong. A woman goes to him feeling helpless (more on that later), and he validates her feelings by putting it out there, asking other people for advice.
As you can see, because of that, an Indian woman come forth with a similar story. People did jump to play race, but none of them were Debito.
My only real issue is that this woman comes across as someone not very integrated into Japanese society, and if Debito provided advice in that regards, I think that would’ve been perfect. However, Debito never claims his site to be for that end, so that he doesn’t seems perfectly understandable.
It comes across as you’re quoting Debito saying calm things, and just making them sound irrational. These situations to me seem to remind Debito why he’s in this in the first place, and his baggage gets put aside.
@beneaththewheel
I kind of agree with you on this. Debito doesn’t do too much harm in this post but the suggestion to “change ward offices” by moving the fiance’s honseki via proxy is just plain silly and not really workable. It really isn’t a good idea to move you honseki around from what I have heard.
The best suggestion would to have had the ward office drone provide EXPLICIT WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION as to what was required. A ward office should be able to provide that and, as has been demonstrated, a list is up on the ward’s homepage.
To be honest, when I saw debito’s response, the first thought was
“Who are you? And where is debito?!”
debito’s response basically seems fairly rational (though a bit too passive for an “activist” we could say, but we already know this. He could try calling the Edogawa-ku ward office and checking, but those international long-distance calls are expensive…)
So although this time debito seems to be taking things calmly, the main thing I want to see, as debito is clearly having an email dialogue with “her”, is maybe he could actually clear up some basic questions, such as “Are you or your fiance underage?”
If it were me I’d also add: is she totally lacking in any Japanese skills? yet wants to get married in Japan to a Japanese? just how long has “she” been here? What is her nationality? etc. Any reasons the clerk might be suspicious that it is a sham marriage. It is still wrong for the clerk to erect barriers not based in law, but it would help us understand what’s really going on here. Though I assume debito is happy to write this off as an isolated incident of 100% racism.
So as usual, I expect not to see much (if any) follow-up on this anecdote from debito. It will be another addition to his list of racist incidents.
And now for the other issue. I don’t know why, but the tone and writing style really seems “male” to me. Add in all the buttering up of debito, and I’d wager there’s a bit of a chance this is a prank.
You are a strong, strong person for having been here so long…
I know you must be a very busy person…
I’m not sure how you take it. My Japanese professor in college told me he left after 20 years..
Though buttering up is proof of nothing except the poster is aware that to get debito to like you, you have to stroke his ego. However, if the comments above are read in a sarcastic tone..well, I leave the judgment to you.
Gender Genie seems to think the writer is “female” so I’d let that slide. Whether it is a prank or not, is a different issue. I am willing to give the benefit of a doubt.
Cool! “Gender Genie”? I’ll check it out.
So, my theory is wrong.
I was wrong.
That’s something you’ll never see at debito.org or any of the Fookooshimar blogs.
Um, why hasn’t anyone here pointed out the fact that your honseki can be in on place and you can be married at an another? My wife’s isn’t even on honshu yet we were married in Tokyo.
We picked the closest ward office, which might not necessarily even be the one you live in.
I totally agree. Posts like this on from Ken leave a bad taste in my mouth.
btw, one reason I did this entry was the surprise at a “normal” article on Debito.org!
However, Mr Arudou did almost nothing bar reply quickly to her, he made no effort to find out more about the story. She could have posted to Big Daikon or wherever and got just as satisfactory response, I feel.
As for the Indian woman’s story, every single foreigner (well, I’m sure there are exceptions!) needs a Certificate of No Impediment or similar from their embassy before getting married, and each country will have their own rules for obtaining it. I don’t see anything remarkable in her comment.
Level3, please, no speculation about the woman – heck, she might even find here and come and post!
I would also add that Mr Arudou tagged this “Pinprick Protests”, but I saw no advice on protesting.
OK, but my speculation about sarcasm still stands for your evaluation
You are a strong, strong person for having been here so long…
No longer in Japan, zing!
I know you must be a very busy person…
As far as we know currently, debito is currently NEET (Not in Education, Employment or Training), zing!
I’m not sure how you take it. My Japanese professor in college told me he left after 20 years..
Huh. A professor leaving the country after 2 decades, due to disgust with “racism”? what a coincidence!
Could be wrong, but it just seems to hit the mark quite well if read as cloaked sarcasm. Still, it could just be birds of a feather flock together. debito fans may all have similar stories with similar “embellishments”.
Maybe it’s a subset of Poe’s Law?
When you can’t tell a genuine fan’s post from a fake one full of sarcasm jokingly cloaked as praise.
“Um, why hasn’t anyone here pointed out the fact that your honseki can be in on place and you can be married at an another?”
Exactly.
婚姻届の提出先は
http://oshiete.goo.ne.jp/qa/1453589.html
It is a mystery why some people are still seeking helps from debito org and why his best friends can’t correct the misinformation and provide adequate tips.
>>My best suggestion is that you change ward offices
I thought the “leave if you don’t like it” approach was to be frowned upon…
Tom Says:
December 16th, 2011 at 11:19 pm
Yeah about the only place you can go to find related stories and empathy concerning discrimination in Japan is debito.org Everybody else is either a hater, apologist, obsessed, long term P hound (as not to be offensive, please use imagination as to what P means) or others such as diplomats/base types; their blame it on you for coming here response only makes it worse. We salute Debito san for his efforts- his deeds have helped many.
http://www.debito.org/?p=9731#comment-299540
Tom Says:
December 16th, 2011 at 11:19 pm
Yeah about the only place you can go to find related rants and misunderstanding concerning discrimination in Japan is debito.org Everybody else is either a sensible person, able to communicate with the Japanese or others such as diplomatically skillful types; their blame it on you for coming here response only makes sense. Some salutes Debito san for his efforts- his deeds have helped many haters.
ちょっと細かすぎるかもしれませんが・・・for some kids who are not trained in the critical thinking.
It is not that easy, you need ID to get the copy of Koseki, which is necessary to submit for the marriage.
The story at the immigration office may be true. But two year living in Japan does not guarantee that your judgement about Japan is sound. Just imagine a guy who say “I knew that whites were racist( been living in a white populated city 2 years before) but ….
I have a question? I was once told there was a common law marriage visa available for international couples in Japan, but it was really hard to get. For some of the more enlightened couples who don’t want to buy into the medieval institution of marriage, Is this an option?
Its called a De-facto marriage visa and some countries including, Canada, Australia and Sweden will provide them but I can’t find any info on Japan. The couple has to provide info proving they have a legit relationship for X amount of time.
common-law marriage
法的手続きや儀式を行わない婚姻、内縁（関係）
外国人向けビザ情報
①日本人の配偶者
「配偶者」というのは、現に婚姻中の者をいい、相手方配偶者が死亡した者や離婚した者は含まれません。婚姻は、有効な婚姻であることが要件であり、内縁の妻や夫は含まれません
Marriage means legally valid marriage, spouse does not include common-law wife and husband.
Ｑ2： 配偶者ビザの要件（基準）は何でしょうか？
Ａ2： 最も重要なのは、入管法上の「配偶者」概念は、民法上のそれよりも、狭い、ということです。具体的には、単に法律上、婚姻しているのみでは足りず、夫婦としての実体（実態）の伴ったものでなければなりません。。これは偽装婚を避ける意味でやむをえないところであります。
The meaning of the “spouse” in immigration law is narrower than the one in civil law to avoid fake marriage.
In view of the immigration law, the spouse needs to “substantially” married, meaning that you live together with your wife etc..
Ｑ4： 配偶者ビザは内縁でも取れますか？
Ａ4： 実務上、取れません。内縁関係が保護されるというのは入管法では特殊例外的場面で、たとえば、実子を保護することの「反射的効力」として、「結果的に」保護されるような場面です。
Q4 Can a common law spouse get spouse visa?
A4 No, but there are exceptional cases where a common law spouse get a resident permit in order to protect their children.
I guess it is something like this.
http://www.geocities.jp/wonderland_aujp/visa.htm#De%20Facto%E3%81%AF
As a side,
It seem the system is taking “on a whole new level of been given the gaijin treatment” in Australia too.
Ken is stretching with this one. He wants to heckle and is grasping at straws.
You would think that this kind of online carry on would be career damaging.
Why?
I agree with the general sentiment that Debito didn’t really do anything disagreeable in this case, but let’s not lose perspective on reality.
I mean, sure, potential employers often Google prospective employees these days to look for dirt, but I’m pretty sure they’re not going to give a flying fark that he has an extended internet spat with some other guy.
And that’s just in the hiring process. It’s not like people generally go digging on people after they’re hired, especially if they’ve been working at a place for a while with a good work record.
And if anyone *did* bring the scandalous information forward that someone is disagreeing with someone on the internet to a person’s boss with any level of concern, I expect the sincere and honest reaction would either be indifference or “Hahahahahah get a life, you wanker”.
tl;dr version : internets, srs bsns
Ah okay, I get the angle you’re going for now, but even after I reread it, I find it hard to “get that”.
Reading the comments at Debito, I feel a “your Japanese is not as good as you think it is” article needs to be written by somebody: detailing listening ability vs. speaking ability, methods of judging a persons ability, and so forth, followed by a conclusion of why one shouldn’t get sore when people think they can’t speak Japanese.
Also, I hoped my comments sparked more controversy. My writing style is still too tame.
Thanks for explaining your position btw, I know not everything I post is perfect or even appropriate, but bar the sarcastic rewrite of Mr Arudou’s comment I feel there’s nothing really wrong with the post.
As for “your Japanese isn’t as good as you think it is”, that would be interesting to see how Mr Arudou tackles it.
@Shaun,
You make some valid points, but if Ken’s employer were looking for a reason to get rid of him, then well….
Kind of like Debito’s employer using Debito’s second failed career as an internet pundit, political agitator, and provocateur as an excuse to slowly push him out of his tenured position in Hokkaido…makes some sense. Debito probably spend more time on his second failed career than he did teaching English in the classroom. And some people (especially Debito) keep wondering why no one wants to hire him.
Greg,
Every bit of antidotal evidence on the matter indicates David resigned. I tend to believe it as well.
David simply doesn’t have the self control not to completely fly off the handle if he were fired or pushed out (ala resign or we are firing you).
The way that Japanese labor law works, it’s fantastically difficult to fire a regular, permanent employee.
The company would have to document a history of misbehavior, counseling on said misbehavior, and so forth … if the termination were to be due to misconduct.
The company would have to post a loss for three subsequent quarters, negotiate a salary reduction, and offer internal relocation if the termination were to be due to adverse economic conditions.
Given the amount of effort required on the part of the company to comply with the two above choices, it’s generally easier for the company to get the employee to resign/retire.
Even if the company phrases it as an involuntary, unilateral employment termination … the first thing an employee in this situation should do is to pop straight around to the local bar association and speak with a labor lawyer.
Thus, a termination is usually handled as a “voluntary resignation” in exchange for a payout.
Dave should know this part of the law, having been in this situation twenty years ago and it having been a core bit of his “Handbook for Immigrants”.
I’m sure, no matter what the actual process was leading up to his resignation, his departure from his teaching position is officially considered to be a voluntary resignation.
If his employer were looking for a reason to get rid of him, he’d still need to keep looking. Generally speaking, “this man fights with another man on the internet” isn’t really a valid reason for dismissal.
Actually a lot of the things he does would be considered detrimental to the reputation of his employer. And in most contracts (even open ended contracts for tenured employees) that is absolutely grounds for dismissal. In fact I have heard from several sources that part of the reason his activism hasn’t been terribly active in recent years was a talk his employer had with him about that very topic (several talks in fact).
I meant Ken, there. What Debito does is a bit above and beyond arguing with another guy on the internet.
@Shaun
But is Ken a permanent employee? We all know how reluctant Japanese companies are to bestow that status on non-Master Race types.
Non renewal is pretty simple in that case.
As a person job hunting for after grad school, ALL companies I talk to are offering permanent employment, and some are even seeking out foreigners.
Thanks Sora.
The irony of any debito fan who thinks Ken should be worried about this blog being an embarrassment, whereas debito HAS engaged in behaviour that is (and remains) an embarrassment to his employer? Can we just list debito’s Greatest Hits?
contacted his opponents employers trying to get them fired (just for a flame war on the internet?!)
stalking
encouraging stalking through publicizing names and contact info
fearmongering and conspiracy foolishness regarding Fukushima
pretending to deserve some shared credit for “activism” of legitimate organizations who actually engage with Japanese society
what could at least be brought to a court of law as libel against several companies (including major corporations with armies of lawyers, who, luckily for debito, know that a lawsuit would be pointless, just giving him the publicity he sought) and individuals. If debito wrote his blog in Japanese, or had his column published in a Japanese newspaper rather than an amusing rag read only by those who choose to live in the English Bubble, he probably would have seen a courtroom as a defendant several times by now.
and not least importantly, considering his position as “professor”:
silly insults and petty jealousy of leading academics in the Japanology sphere
Oh, and the seal costume.
International couples who are of the same sex, can have a common law marriage visa in Sweden and Australia. So I have to assume that all countries that have same sex marriage laws and de-facto marriage visa’s would be the same. Thats cool, more power to them.
http://www.nationalvisas.com.au/partner/visarequirements-spousedefacto.htm
Oh, and I forgot publicly insulting his employer many times on his blog. Whining about pay cuts down to levels which still seem great considering the lack of workload.
Appealing their decisions not to give him sabbatical, basically forcing his employer to do a bunch of needless paperwork on the pretext that they have bad judgment, not him.
Twice.
Of course, even asking for sabbatical in the first place showed a bit of nerve and was probably seen as a waste of time by them from the outset.
And then complaining about all that on his blog. Along with jealously sniping at unnamed coworkers who did get sabbatical, even though they haven’t written “5000 articles”.
How does one NOT get pushed out of a job for such behaviour?
Hoofin apparently noticed my post.
Dunno how it works in the English-teaching profession, but regular permanent employment is the norm for foreigners in both the financial and IT sectors. Or, at least, it was in 2009.
Contractors exist, usually used for short-duration or expendable roles (market data, testing, DC operations, etc). They’re the first to go when the partners need bigger bonuses, and they comprise maybe 20% of the work force. Interestingly, most of the contractors that I’ve seen at financials have been Japanese nationals working for shady bodyshops.
But, hell, don’t take my word for it. All I have is anecdotal evidence from having actually worked in Tokyo in both sectors for over a decade, watching both mass layoffs and “bottom 5% workforce reductions”.
Anecdotes, be they from me or from random people writing into Dave’s site, aren’t data.
Go talk to the local bengoshikai. Ask for a lawyer that specializes in labor cases. Give him a few hypotheticals. Ask if one’s rights as a permanent employee are abridged if one is not a Japanese citizen.
(betting that you’ve got better things to do with your time, I’ll give you the answer here: they aren’t.)
Remember, I’m talking about the labor rights of PERMANENT employees. Not term-limited contractors. Different kettle of fish altogether. I’m not addressing the difficulty of a foreigner obtaining permanent employment. In my experience, it is not difficult … but, then again, I’ve never worked in academia.
Nothing ironic about it. I merely didn’t comment about Debito.
There’s no question that in a Japan sense his activism was career limiting.
My employer moved all (time-limited intra-company transferees excluded) foreigners on rolling contracts to full seishain about 10 years ago, just for the record.
It doesn’t discount the problem, but I hope some people aren’t trying to portray the tendency of some employers and some fields to not be so keen on giving permanent employment status as an exclusively Japanese issue.
Just look at the rise of employment via temp agencies in the States (and in Japan, how about other countries?). Then talk about outsourcing.
And sorry, eikaiwa is analagous to generic burger-flipping or any other unskilled labor. But don’t bring McD’s into the comparision. At least McDonald’s has standards (especially McD’s Japan) effective job training, etc.
Hoofin’s call for anecdotes is at least an attempt to evaluate the issue from both sides, but again, anecdotes are not a substitute for statistics.
Especially if one might be inclined to ignore, question, or discount only the stories that conflict with one’s preconceptions.
Oh, and if hoofin would please stop putting words into peoples’ mouths (i.e. if you think eikaiwa is unskilled labor, you are therefore anti-union) that would be nice.
I’d also point out that one reason the the General Union doesn’t have much on seishain issues is that larger companies there is already a company union. At my place of work, I can opt out, but I lose the union-negotiated overtime and flexitime, for instance.
(Posting here instead of Hoofin so this comment doesn’t get edited)
Thanks for attempting to correct my mobile phone input errors by editing my comment — but they are in fact called “compute clusters” (ex. Beowulf, Hadoop), not “computeR clusters” which is a more generic term. One’s a sub category of the other.
Not a term I would expect you to know. But that’s why you shouldn’t edit other peoples’ comments.