A twice emigrant speaks on immigration

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Yes, it’s Just Be Cause time again. No, it’s not the hoped-for wrap-up. Yes, it’s poor, even more poor than usual.

About the new special immigration scheme:

You must get 70 points on the Justice Ministry’s qualifying scale (see www.moj.go.jp/content/000083223.pdf) And it’s tough, really tough. Take the test and see if you qualify (I don’t).

Well, that’s because neither you nor I are millionaire PhDs. Laxman, care to tell us if you qualify? I suspect you might be borderline.

Visa regimes with illiterate foreigners facing insurmountable hurdles are what maintain Japan’s revolving-door labor market.

Must…resist…obvious…cheap…shot… :facepalm:

Now on to nurses:

These NJ were all qualified nurses in their own countries, so their only real obstacle was the Japanese language. Yet this visa program required that they pass the same nursing exam that native speakers sit.

And… The way to demonstrate their fluency is to pass a test of presumably a similar level of difficulty to their home country. If they cannot read the labels on Japanese medicine bottles, for instance, they are not qualified for Japan, simple as that.

A slight digression: I know of a number of people, and it is apparently a common route for Japanese people, who after studying nursing in Japan have gone to Australia or New Zealand on their own money, and studied for an international English nursing qualification (the name of which I cannot remember right now); do they complain about having to redo their exams again? Additionally, here’s someone complaining about doctors and nurses in the UK who cannot speak English.

humiliating unskilled labor, including bathing patients

Bathing patients is humiliating? Are you sure on that? I suspect Mr Arudou is going to get some negative feedback on that point!

This begs the question: If learning written Japanese was so important, why didn’t the government hire nurses from kanji-literate China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Macau or Taiwan?

LMGTFY.

Because, I guess, that would be too easy, and we’d get hordes of skilled Chinese.

Your guess? Why don’t you do some research instead. Furthermore, don’t Chinese come over on their own dime yuan and study, just as mentioned above with Japanese going to the Antipodes.

Now we get to South Americans:

So, after nearly two decades of working full-time keeping Japan’s export industries price-competitive, the nikkei were told after 2008′s economic downturn that they were no longer employable. Because of — you guessed it — their lack of Japanese ability.

So, they were here for almost two decades but did not have enough Japanese ability to get an alternative job – whose fault is that? Furthermore, the way Mr Arudou has written that implies that all nikkei were told to get lost.

I think we can safely say that Japan’s working-visa regimes (including, if you think about it, even the JET Programme) are deliberately designed to discourage most NJ from ever settling here.

:facepalm:

One of the prerogatives of a sovereign nation-state is the ability to make laws about who is a "member" of its society (i.e., a citizen) and who isn’t (i.e., a foreigner).

Axiomatic is that citizens have full rights and foreigners have fewer, meaning that the latter is in a weakened position in society.

So, you admit that any sovereign state may not grant foreigners as many rights as they grant to their citizens. Interesting… :twisted:

So Japan’s visa regimes use criteria that practically guarantee foreigners stay disenfranchised — such as low language ability.

So what are you asking for? A requirement to learn the language, like the Indonesian nurses? Or do people have a higher chance of getting their visa renewals rejected if they pass JLPT Level 1? :headdesk: :roll:

But if a nation-state can set boundaries on membership, it must also set criteria for how people can surmount those boundaries and graduate into becoming members — in this case, making foreigners into Japanese citizens.

This site explains it all in English.

a less irradiated food chain

Ahh, we nearly made it all the way to the end, but he had to slip in a Fookooshimar into the second-last paragraph. Furthermore, as someone pointed out last time, irradiated food is most often found in the USA.

Japan has the option to believe that immigrants do not belong in Japan’s future. On the other hand, potential immigrants have the option to watch from afar as Japan withers into an economic backwater. Again, by design.

I can’t really see how the second sentence follows from the first.

Leave a comment

211 Comments.

  1. Laxman Sivaramakrishnan

    For once I agree with Sora re his comment on the speaking Japanese thing.

    I have made way more money here for the very reason that I speak Japanese and speak it well.

    Debito.org is getting as stupid and pointless as Tepido is.

  2. @beneaththewheel:

    That was a good comment. The one quibble is that it isn’t debatable that Japanese is difficult for English speakers to learn. It’s about the hardest major language for anglophones to master, judging by comparative study time requirements. On the other hand, the main reason anglophones I know don’t speak good Japanese is simple lack of effort. And most of them are language teachers. :roll:

  3. @Simon:

    Indeed. And regarding:

    …screw you, Donald. As I’ve said before here and here, not only are you buying into this whole J media-generated gaijin-bashing “Flyjin” phenomenon (in ways unbecoming a bona fide academic researcher), but your making yourself out to be more holier-than-thou than other foreigners…

    Someone seems to have forgotten that the “Flyjin Phenomenon” was created by Non Japanese and perpetuated in the Foreign media — maninly the blogosphere.

  4. @Laxman Sivaramakrishnan:

    Debito.org is getting as stupid and pointless as Tepido is.

    I’m not sure if that’s a compliment or an insult… :lol:

  5. Wow. This “congratulation” post reads like something written by an 8-year-old brat to his successful older sister. A stupid 8 year old.

    then screw you, Donald.

    classy as always, debito

    As I’ve said before here and here, not only are you buying into this whole J media-generated..

    Dammit, the word is from the English blogsphere. back when debito was making up this bullshit claim, a search for the word “flyjin” or “フライ人” or any variation in Japanese news ONLY yielded links back to English sites. What a pathetic fucking liar. That’s how one becomes an academic?

    gaijin-bashing “Flyjin” phenomenon (in ways unbecoming a bona fide academic researcher),

    and then debito just tries lecturing a bona fide academic on what being a bona fide academic means in the same paragraph as such bullshit? :facepalm:

    but your making yourself out to be more holier-than-thou than other foreigners is childish

    too much hypocrisy..too many jokes possible..brain fry :headdesk:

    , pandering, and disrespectful of other people making their own life choices.”

    Life choices such as abandoning their jobs and homes because they were dumb enough to listen to the campaign of sensationalist flyjin lies from people like CJ? Or life choices like quitting a job to become a NEET-with-a-library-card in Hawaii? :roll:

  6. @Laxman Sivaramakrishnan:

    あなたが私に賛同するのはこれがはじめてではない。
    まあ、tepido への評価は別にして、有道ブログの愚かさをに気づくのはいいことです。It’s never too late to realize how stupid and pointless Debito org is.

     因みに、Tepido ではnative 級の人が何人かいますが、有道ブログでしっかりとした日本語の使い手、というのは、私のみるところMark in Yayoi さんくらいしかいない。亀清旅館の青い目の若旦那も完璧な日本語ですけど、あの人は、有道ブログ実質脱退と考えていいいでしょう。Tyler Lynch writes perfect Japanese but it is safe to assume he substantially gave up on Debito org.

     (以前に有道ブログに参加した人たちでも後で誤解をうけないように、今のうちに、袂を分かつ宣言しておいたほうがいいとおもいますけどね。)

     あとは、日本語を披露しないで名人だとうそぶいているひとたちばっかではないでしょうか。ここらへん、いつも面白いな、と思うのですが、日本人だと、英語はそれほどできない、という人でも案外英語ができる人がいるのに対して、欧米人では、まさに、旅行者級か、チンピラ級のブロークン日本語ができるだけで、バイリンガルと自称する人が多い。
    I am often amazed by some gajins with broken Japanese who claim to be bilingual. それでいて現実に、日本語が上手になってから、日本人にほめられると「とんでもございません」と立派な日本的日本語を使えるようになる。

  7. The reason Debito gets his knickers in a twist over naturalized or famous foreigners like Keene, Laszlo, Ogolun, and even small fry like Eido-kun is because he’s the jealous loser of the bunch.

    EVERYBODY who is Western and is a true lifer in Japan is more successful than he is. And more importantly, happier than he is.

    That drives him fucking nuts because in his mind, HE was destined for I Came I Saw I Conquered glory.

    Debito is hated by even his own family. While Keene is going out with a glorious ending and whose works will be read by academics for generations, Debito has been reduced to gaining enough importance so that somebody besides the landlord demanding rent actually notices before he mummifies when he dies.

    You think I joke, but that’s the reason he wrote that JBC on the Amnesty Intl dude in Japan that died alone and forgotten.

    Nobody remembers an unaccomplished bitter blaming society asshole.

  8. Angel in the Architecture

    @:

    Quite an article!

    >>Well, if you really said this as reported (and you certainly seem to have done so in the past),

    God forbid he verify facts before publishing… :lol: :roll:

    >>not only are you buying into this whole J media-generated gaijin-bashing “Flyjin” phenomenon (in ways unbecoming a bona fide academic researcher),

    As opposed to buying into the whole NJ media-generated Japan-bashing “Radiation Death Cloud” phenomenon (in ways unbecoming a bona fide academic researcher), :roll: :roll:

    >>but your making yourself out to be more holier-than-thou than other foreigners is childish, pandering, and disrespectful of other people making their own life choices.

    :shock: Sorry, who is saying this to whom???

    >> And it shows a remarkable naiveté regarding Japan and life in general, since will you never have to face a life in Japan as a non-elite NJ laborer in Japan;

    :shock: :shock: Ahem; Rinse and Repeat,

    >> you won’t be around for any denouement.

    :shock: :shock: :shock: Cough, splutter! Ctrl-c: Ctrl-v

    >>Do something to lose that “mean-old-man” stink you’re repeatedly and needlessly airing in public.

    :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Gag: Choke: Eyes bulge due to lack of oxygen…

    This reminded me of a song lyric, and when I googled it, other parts seemed even more appropriate…

    Credit where due;
    >A man walks down the street
    >It’s a street in a strange world
    >Maybe it’s the Third World
    >Maybe it’s his first time around
    >He doesn’t speak the language
    >He holds no currency
    >He is a foreign man

    It also had another stanza I could have quoted, but I think it’s probably too close to the bone; I bite my tongue. (This is left as an exercise for the student.) :twisted:

  9. On Filipino(/a) nurses:

    ” I would argue that rather than a revolving door for cheap foreign labor this is a test case to see how well these nurses culturally integrate.”

    I can’t be sure, but wasn’t the scheme a diplomatic concession on some trade deal?

  10. @The Chrysanthemum Sniffer:

    If it was, then one could perhaps argue the results are even more cynical on the part of the GOJ…

  11. @The Chrysanthemum Sniffer:

    ”wasn’t the scheme a diplomatic concession on some trade deal?”

    日・フィリピン経済連携協定に基づくフィリピン人
    看護師・介護福祉士候補者の受入れに関する指針の公示について
    http://www.mhlw.go.jp/houdou/2008/11/h1106-2.html

    看護師介護師受け入れ問題は難しい問題をはらんでいますが、基本的には、Japan needs foreign care workers and they need proficiency in Japanese in accordance with the profession they engage in;the nurse needs more proficiency than the care workers.

    In any case, I think Japan should give them more time to learn Japanese.

     
    At the same time we should also pay attention to the fact that the language is not sole problem.

    外国人看護師の国家試験、英訳の試験でも合格4割弱

    2010年2月28日(朝日新聞)

     日本との経済連携協定(EPA)に基づき来日し、看護師として働くために研修中のフィリピン人看護師候補者が、日本の国家試験を英訳した模試を受けたところ、合格基準に達したのは4割弱だった。協定では、3年以内に日本語で実施される試験を通らないと帰国しなければならない。英語や母国語での受験を認めるなどの配慮を求める声が上がっていたが、そもそもの看護事情や教育の違いも壁になることがわかった。

     模試の結果を分析した産業医科大の川口貞親教授が27日、福岡市であった国際会議で公表した。

     海外技術者研修協会と九州大が昨年2月の試験を英訳し、12月に実施。フィリピン人看護師候補者の第1陣として昨年5月に来日した93人中59人が受験した。

     この国家試験の実際の合格率は89.9%だったが、模試で合格基準に達したのは35.6%の21人。うち12人は試験勉強でこの過去問題を見たことがあった。初めて問題を見た人の合格率は23.7%だった。候補者はいずれも英語で看護教育を受け、来日前に3年間の実務経験もあった。

     この国家試験は必修と一般問題など合わせて300点満点で4択のマークシート方式。正答率が低かったのは、日本の社会福祉制度や、疾患の基礎的知識についての問題だった。

     日本人と同じ問題が課されることに、将来の雇用を想定して候補者を受け入れ、支援してきた医療機関などからは「漢字の勉強が負担」「英語、母国語での受験を認めるべきだ」という指摘が多かった。だが、今回の模試の結果から、言葉に配慮しても、日本人と同レベルの合格率は遠いことがわかった。

     模試を受けた第1陣は今月21日に1年目の国家試験に挑戦した。合格発表は3月26日。フィリピンに先駆けて2008年に来日したインドネシア人看護師候補者第1陣にとっては2度目で、不合格なら来年が最後の機会だ。

    フィリピンでは日本のような高齢者医療よりも、周産期医療に重点が置かれる。インドネシアでは感染症が多いが、糖尿病などの生活習慣病は少ない。各国それぞれの医療事情の違いが、看護教育にも影響している。

    http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kentanakachan/e/d130d1ca9f37d1981f3b4cf930cd7d1f

    The medical education they received in their country are different.

    ついでに有道先生におかれましては、negative campaign だけでなく、例えば、

    介護福祉士 外国人候補も「職員」扱いへ
    2012.3.1 08:05
    http://sankei.jp.msn.com/life/news/120301/bdy12030108060001-n1.htm

     厚生労働省は、経済連携協定(EPA)に基づきインドネシアやフィリピンから来日した介護福祉士候補者の受け入れ態勢を強化するため、研修先となる施設の支援に乗り出す方針を決めた。

     夜間などの職員配置を手厚くした場合、研修中の外国人候補者を「介護職員」とみなして介護報酬を上乗せする仕組みに改め、施設側の負担を軽くして外国人候補者を受け入れやすくする。平成24年度中の実施を目指す。

     介護福祉士候補者は施設で働いて実地訓練を積みながら、日本の国家試験の合格を目指している。厚労省は候補者の給与について、日本人職員と同額以上を支払うよう義務付けているが、候補者による介護は「研修」との位置付けで、報酬の算定対象外。しかし、人件費は全額が施設側の負担で「経営を圧迫している」との問題が指摘されていた。外国人候補者の受け入れ実績は21年度の379人から23年度は119人に減少している。

     見直し後は、高齢者の夜間の世話などに外国人候補者が参加した場合も職員と同様に報酬が支払われるようになる。入居者50人の特別養護老人ホームの場合、増員配置すれば約1万円(1日当たり)が加算される見込みだ。

    I also hope that Debito will not just focus negative aspects and spread negative disinformation but also let people know positive developments that’s going on in Japan.

  12. Jesus Christ. Who says “Screw You!” to a ninety-year-old man?

    “since will you never have to face a life in Japan as a non-elite NJ laborer in Japan”

    Newsflash to debito. Keene would never have faced life as a non-elite laborer in Japan even if he naturalized when he was forty. Dude is a university professor. Plus, Debito has never had to face a life in Japan as a non-elite NJ laborer in Japan. He’s a “professor” too. (He once answered phones for yakuza truck-drivers or something, but that obviously wasn’t his life path.)

  13. Plus, why does NJ refer to people who are Japanese citizens?

  14. A man walks down the street
    He says why am I soft in the middle now
    Why am I soft in the middle
    The rest of my life is so hard
    I need a photo-opportunity
    I want a shot at redemption
    Don’t want to end up a cartoon
    In a cartoon graveyard

  15. Laxman Sivaramakrishnan

    @:
    We could do without the lecture thanks Sora.
    Debito was good when he was confronting and sticking it to the racists amongst the local population. Now that he no longer does that, and even takes potshots at 90 year old men, I don’t contribute over there any more.

    As for Tepido, little Kenny is wasting his time with this shit, seriously. If my company had recorded a loss of 700B yen, I would be looking over my shoulder, and not giving my company an excuse to get rid of me.

  16. Laxman Sivaramakrishnan

    @VK:

    Japanese is not that difficult really to get at least to a decent spoken level. No tricky verb conjugations, no cases etc.

    The written language is a different kettle of fish, but with time and application it’s not that difficult. Hiragana and katakana I learned quite quickly, and I started with very pictographic kanji and built from there.

    Where I am weak is handwriting. I can read the morning newspaper easily enough, but give me a pen and I can’t really write to save myself. Of course these days it doesn’t matter that much, but it’s a regret that I’m not better at it.

  17. @Laxman Sivaramakrishnan:

    The peak of his time was when he worked with Tony László and other Japanese people against Otaru onsen.
    Since then he did nothing other than providing disinformation.

    @Laxman Sivaramakrishnan:

    What’s so funny is that people on Debito org say that they are proficient in Japanese but they rarely, if ever. show it in public and when some of them write in Japanese, their Japanese is pathetic.

  18. @Laxman Sivaramakrishnan:
    I agree entirely: the main problem facing anglophones is effort. No language is insurmountable. I’m just being nerdy about a language acquisition point. (FWIW, Korean and Arabic are also rated in the hardest group for English speakers)

    I actually think that culturally, English speakers can make a terrible meal of language learning. I’ve met people who find the idea of learning kana stupidly daunting and impressive. They’re just alphabets, ffs.(*) As for kanji, I found pictographics next to useless myself – I’m surprised anyone successfully uses the idea beyond a handful of kanji. Learning to look kanji up was my key to understanding their logic. Suddenly memorising large numbers of them became easier, as well as writing them.

    (*yes, yes, technically they’re syllabaries not alphabets…/pedant)

  19. Being late to the Debito party and all any comments I might make are entirely unproductive and likely to simply rehash what everyone knows.

    So, here is a question. How does someone become such a pompous blowhard with no insight like Debito? It is not like he cannot draw from a very deep wellspring of critical commentary. It makes me wonder if it is not all just a show – but then reading some of his comments on the immigration stuff I get the image of a portly neckbeard looking to “pwn n00bs” with a devastating display of wit and erudition (and failing badly).

    As an aside, I happen to be one of these “million dollar PhDs” working as an academic in Japan (and unlike Debito not a former glorified English teacher at a bottom rung university) and quite easily hit the point threshold under the new system. Moreover, I have worked in several countries (as a highly skilled migrant) that have arguably more stringent requirements than the ones on offer here. The only people that would have a problem with what is on offer are people that would be excluded under this kind of system anyway.

    As for the comments on Keene – embarrassing. I actually feel sorry for Debito reading his latest screed. But then I remind myself that he is, let’s face it, a complete idiot.

  20. @The Chrysanthemum Sniffer:

    Beat me to it CS,

    But oddly, I think that stanza, even though it is fairly appropriate itself, is not the one Angel was implying.

  21. @GuruGuruDokkan:

    How does someone become such a pompous blowhard with no insight like Debito?

    If you look back into Arudou’s archive, it was ever thus. It appears he has never examined his own personal (ie David Aldwinckle’s) prejudices or (Euro-colonialist) cultural baggage, and as a result he possesses an extraordinary lack of empathy and insight. The interesting thing I find is how fresh the shock is each time he writes something awful. (The “Tatemae/honne means Japan is a culture of lies” article was probably the worst recent one. How on Earth can you live here so long and not understand… :headdesk: )

    What I think constantly throws me is that he’s clearly not stupid in and of himself. It’s a constant struggle to believe he continually produces the mis-steps, naiveties, illogicalities and bile that he does. It’s like watching a coin slowly spin on its edge: surely at some point it’s going to fall into a more stable state. Surely someone can’t be this hateful, this weird about a country he actively chose to make his permanent home. Surely this is just a phase. But he just doesn’t think very hard about anything at all. Intellectually, he’s incredibly lazy.

    He also finds any criticism or critique of his output thoroughly toxic and offensive. That doesn’t help him either.

  22. @VK:

    What I think constantly throws me is that he’s clearly not stupid in and of himself…

    Intellectually, he’s incredibly lazy.

    How do his continual errors in vocabulary selection factor into those two points? From the infamous “coining” the word “sheeple” to even the most recent JBC calling the visa process “insurmountable” (if so, then there wold be no visas at all).

    Continual self-contradiction could be a sign of either or both as well, but is just par for the course with the typical single-issue hate blogger/conspiracy nut.

    And can we just lay it down and say he IS a conspiracy nut? The “Japan-Is-Evil-and-Racist-in-all-Things” conspiracy.

    Let’s just to go to debito’s most recent JBC about flyjin for yet another contradiction:

    “As I’ve said before here and here, not only are you buying into this whole J media-generated gaijin-bashing “Flyjin” phenomenon “

    Yet back to his infamous “sheeple”/Fookooshimar rant

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20110503ad.html

    “But it’s the NJ who got it particularly bad, since the worst critics were from within their own ranks. The word “fly-jin,” remember, was coined by a foreigner, so this meanness isn’t just a byproduct of systematic exclusion from society. “

    :facepalm:

  23. @Level3:

    Taking vocabulary as an example: I occasionally misuse words as I type. Often it’s because I don’t want to break the flow to think of the right word, sometimes it’s a slip and occasionally, I have actually misunderstood the meaning of the word.

    What’s crucial is that once I finish writing something, I go back and check. If I’ve misunderstood a word and someone points it out, I become quite embarrassed, and correct myself as soon as possible. In other words, I engage in self-criticism. I know I make mistakes. I have too much healthy pride to allow mistakes (in vocabulary, facts or arguments) to go uncorrected and unacknowledged, even writing pseudonymously. And I am not at all unusual in this.

    But all this takes time and effort and self-awareness. Being innately intelligent doesn’t get anyone far by itself once you’re out of High school. Without additional intellectual effort, you may as well be a D grade student. Arudou doesn’t make that effort. Seen from the outside, it’s like he’s too busy playing Arudou Debito.

  24. A quick comment for those who think the salary points are tough: sorry to sound rude but this system isn’t aiming at run-of-the-mill junior postdocs. And as for more high-flying (eg Todai faculty) staff struggling with this criterion: not based on what I know of colleagues’ salaries (eg on grant applications). Even a good postdoc there can get ¥8m+.

    Amusingly, the UK has had to abandon its (proposed) salary threshold for settlement: phds will get special dispensation and not have to meet the £35,000 target (about ¥4.5m), cos scientists are paid like crap there:

    http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=419225

  25. @James Annan:

    I’d need to see a link to a job posting for an ¥8 million post doc at Todai to believe that.

  26. Public sector pay cuts for fiscal 2013 will not add to academic salaries, I suspect.

  27. Sorry ¥8m was a mistake, but ¥7m is definitely reachable with an ordinary level of experience.

    The following is not Todai, but I knew where to find the adverts (cos I work there):

    ¥5.2 for a bottom-rung PD (“expected to graduate”), so that’s 15 salary points for starters:
    http://www.jamstec.go.jp/e/about/recruit/rigc_20120405.html
    ¥5.7-7m for a few years experience:
    http://www.jamstec.go.jp/e/about/recruit/rigc_20120405_2.html

    Senior scientists (I am one) get 6.5-8.5m and this position is possibly comparable to assoc professor level – as Scott Urista said up-thread, a reasonably competent person could expect to be there in their mid-30s, picking up 25-30 points for this alone. It’s possible our salaries are unusually high, but I do happen to know a todai assoc prof who gets significantly more than me. You can google me and see if you think I am the sort of calibre that this scheme is intended for, but I did have a PR application rejected a couple of years ago for not having made a significant enough contribution (I was under 10y residency at that time), so I’m a little surprised that this scheme is lenient enough to let me in.

  28. @The Dude.

    James Annan is not that far off the mark, in my experience.

    Since I happen to work at the University of Tokyo, perhaps the conversation might benefit from mentioning the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science, or JSPS Fellowship. Their fellowships are a matter of public record and quite generous.

    They provide a monthly maintenance allowance of 362,000 yen; a settling-in allowance of 200,000 yen; a research budget of 1,500,000 per year; full domestic and international travel expense reimbursements for work purposes; and of course overseas travel accident and sickness insurance coverage. Researchers are also eligible for additional grants upwards of 1,000,000 yen per year through their institution should it be necessary to cover research expenses.

    Most of the JSPS Fellows tend to be working in the natural sciences like Chemistry and Biology, although I also have met Fellows who are doing research in Architecture, Economics, and even Philosophy (though he was definitely a rare case).

    A JSPS Fellow receives about 7 million yen a year in total, but mid-career professors can be awarded even more. Thousands of recent Ph.D.s apply each year, but they only accept about 400 long-term postdocs and 150 short-term postdocs.

    It’s competitive, but worth it. The University of Tokyo is a great place to work in terms of facilities, collegial support, and intellectual creativity. I recommend it highly.

  29. I am trying to understand the bile David is throwing at Keene. I guess it could have something to do with the talk David was going to give at Columbia. Or maybe Keenes relationship with Chalmers Johnson. It just comes across as to personal though. Either that or David has finally slipped a cog and gone seriously mentally ill.

    Either way for a guy who’s shown streaks of intelligence in the past this is career suicide if his goal is to be taken seriously as a researcher on Japan and subjects Japanese. And probably most frustrating to David is Keene probably has no idea who he is and certainly doesn’t care.

  30. Compare:

    http://www.debito.org/?p=10017#comment-316924

    with

    http://mainichi.jp/select/wadai/news/20120309ddm012040160000c.html

    「鬼怒鳴門(キーン・ドナルド)」と書かれた名刺を区からプレゼントされると満面の笑みを見せた。戸籍名は片仮名で「キーン・ドナルド」とするという。

    “Thou shall not write news articles by looking at pictures.”

    Japan Probe correctly notes the 当て字 is a pseudonym, not his real Japanese name, which is in katakana. The name is obviously a joke, so I’m surprised how people are taking it literally on JapanToday.

    有道出人 is not a joke, though.

  31. @:

    No comment from Debito nor Mark in Yayoi? 
    こうしたコメントを黙認していれば、有道ブログのほかのRacistsといっしょくたにされても文句はいえませんよ。

    “No comment” from me towards another poster on Debito’s blog?

    First, Sora, I want you to look closely at when I last posted on that thread (just after 7 AM) and then at when that comment was posted: 9:47 AM.

    You can’t come on here at 5:00 PM the same day and accuse me of somehow tacitly agreeing with (黙認) or accepting posts that I literally haven’t had a chance to read yet. You know full well that I work at night (thus posting after work) and was sleeping the entire time. Even an ordinary salaryman who comes on the internet in the morning before work isn’t going to get home in time to read the replies or comment on them before 5 PM the same afternoon.

    :facepalm: :headdesk:

    I don’t want to explode with anger at you here, but this is the kind of dishonest, underhanded trolling that makes me wonder if you’re really interested in discussing things with people.

    Take the 黙認 and ほかのRacistsといっしょくたにされる nonsense back, please.

    I’m flattered that you think my Japanese is good, though. But I won’t fall into the trap you’re setting here:

    それでいて現実に、日本語が上手になってから、日本人にほめられると「とんでもございません」と立派な日本的日本語を使えるようになる。

    「とんでもございません」、「とんでもありません」と平気で言う日本人は多いでしょうが、論理的に間違いとされています。「とんでも+ない」のではなく、一つの形容詞(おさない、危ない、くだらない、見たいに)で、「〜ない」を「〜無い」と見なして「〜ございません」を入れ替えるのが難しいともいます。賛否両論ですから「立派な日本的日本語」とは言いがたいですね。

    http://oshiete.goo.ne.jp/qa/523299.html
    http://oshiete.goo.ne.jp/qa/790994.html
    http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~fv9k-fkd/zatubun/tondemo.html

    Japanese natives can get away with saying that form, but if a non-native says it, it’ll be hard to argue in its favor, because logically it’s an incorrect form. You would be laughed at if you made those other adjectives into polite forms that way. I will stick with とんでもないことです or とんでもないことでございます, if you don’t mind.

    Getting back to Donald Keene and his detractors on Debito.org: sorry, Sora, but I’m not responsible for anything Debito says, does, or thinks, and I’m definitely not responsible for the views of other commenters on his site.

    My posts on that thread speak for themselves — I’m a Donald Keene fan and think that anything he’s said against the so-called “flyjin” can only be a minor blemish on a multi-decade record of excellence and contributions to society. Other posters can say what they like: I have no obligation to respond to them in any way.

    @the rest of you guys — sorry for the derail! :oops:

  32. I originally misspoke. Of course academics at Todai can easily qualify for points on income. I meant to say that it would be unlikely for them to get full points, not any points. My apologies.

    @James Annan: Thanks for the links. I was referring to positions in the ac.jp world. I’m well aware that 法人 jobs pay much better.

    @Paul: Thanks for the description of the JSPS fellowship. I was referring to positions available to Japanese nationals. If you’re currently a JSPS fellow at Todai, be aware that your Japanese peers likely make half of what JSPS fellows enjoy as a tax-free stipend.

  33. @Mark in Yayoi:

    “You can’t come on here at 5:00 PM the same day and accuse me of somehow tacitly agreeing with (黙認) or accepting posts that I literally haven’t had a chance to read yet. ”

    No no. I am not accusing you. I am asking if you will not comment and I am warning you that you have good reason to be classified as the same kind of racists on Debit org.

    “Take the 黙認 and ほかのRacistsといっしょくたにされる nonsense back, please.”

    I don’t have to. If you comment on Debito org against that comment, I have no reason to regard you as the one with other racists on Debito org.

    Did you post the comment since then? Did Debito delete your comment? Or did he ban you?
    Let me know.

    「とんでもございません」、「とんでもありません」と平気で言う日本人は多いでしょうが、論理的に間違いとされています。「とんでも+ない」のではなく、一つの形容詞(おさない、危ない、くだらない、見たいに)で、「〜ない」を「〜無い」と見なして「〜ございません」を入れ替えるのが難しいともいます。賛否両論ですから「立派な日本的日本語」とは言いがたいですね。

    たぶん、何を言っているのかわからない、日本人も多いでしょう。ご指摘のように、「平気で言う日本人は多い」からです。私も指摘されるまではわからなかった。

     リンク記事にあるように、論理的に間違っているというより、敬語として、とんでもないことでございます」というのが正しい、という人たちがいる、というわけでしょう。

    そして、ここで日本的というのは、文脈からして、謙遜して話す、という意味です。

    いずれにせよ、それほど日本語に熟知されている、という点では私の見立ては間違っていなかったわけです。

    ”I’m not responsible for anything Debito says, does, or thinks, and I’m definitely not responsible for the views of other commenters on his site.”

    Sure a member of, for instance, K.K.K is not responsible for what the leader and other members say and do but it is reasonable to assume the regular participants of the the rally, activism and forum have no objection to the utterances and the claim of the group unless s/he speaks up against them.

    You know that Debito banned many people unfairly and edits the comment critical of his activism.

    You have never spoken up against it.

    You know that there are lots of nasty comments against Japan and Japanese on Debito org and since dissenters are banned, you know that they can’t speak against the hate speeches on his blog.

    You know that Debito threw words like “fuck off” to the dissenters

    You turned a blind eye to it.

     The facts that you have been a close friend of the hate blogger and a participant of the hate blog and you have turned a blind eye to the hate speeches on his blog and you have never actively spoken against his exclusionary policy on his blog will stay with you for the rest of your life unless you leave the blog or you speak against them on the blog as some people are doing .

     あの有道ブログと積極的に、肯定的にかかわりがあると思われても恥ずかしくない、平気だ、という人がどれだけいるのだろうか? 

     あの排外的ブログに長年積極的に参加し、あの手の日本・日本人に対する深い偏見に基く憎悪に満ちたコメントを目撃しながら、自分は抗議できるにもかかわらず、黙っていた、ということを後々、多くの日本人に知られて恥ずかしくない、というなら、それはそれで、Mark さんの勝手ですから、それでいいでしょう。しかし、それは非常に残念なことだ、と思っているからこうしてコメントしているわけです。私は挑発するが、敵は多く作りたくない。 脱退者は歓迎しているのです。

     

     

  34. @: 空, trying to counter the racist tripe at debito.org is like trying to wipe the shit from your ass while someone is emptying their septic tank on your head. The whole site is full of completely dishonest, despicable people and there is very little one can do to change that.

    Now considering these circumstances, there are really only two options to proceed with. You can go full troll and try to insult and berate the extremely clueless ones (i.e. Jim Di Griz) including the Dear Leader himself, or you can post criticisms against certain points every once in a while. The first option will almost certainly get you banned with your posts getting ‘lost’ in the filters, the second will allow you to add just a tiny semblance of balance to the site (and I do mean tiny).

    I have no idea who Mark in Yayoi is in person, but he has never come across as one of the complete psychos on debito.org. He certainly could become the troll and burn bridges, or he could continue with the posting style he has. I see nothing wrong with that, especially if he’s trying to have some kind of positive impact on the newbies to the site. There is a lot to be said for trying to steer rational people away from the site, and there is only so much you can get away with saying before you’re completely banned or told to ‘fuck off’.

    By telling everyone to go Full Troll ™, you’re essentially giving your full approval to debito.org in indoctrinating a whole new wave of FOBs. A lot of us have seen how bad the site can be, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s the first stop for a lot of people new to Japan.

  35. @George:

    ” I see nothing wrong with that, especially if he’s trying to have some kind of positive impact on the newbies to the site.”

    ….if he’s trying to do that. yes. But from the way he acts, he does not come come across that way to me.

    私は有道ブログに投稿する人だれかれかまわず、文句を言っているつもりはない。絶望的なのはいるわけです。他方、明らかに有道ブログに批判的な人はいる。また、期待の持てるひともいる。私は逃げ道は用意してあげているつもりです。

    I said what I was supposed to say.

    The facts that you have been a close friend of the hate blogger and a participant of the hate blog and you have turned a blind eye to the hate speeches on his blog and you have never actively spoken against his exclusionary policy on his blog will stay with you for the rest of your life unless you leave the blog or you speak against them on the blog as some people are doing .

    あの排外的ブログに長年積極的に参加し、あの手の日本・日本人に対する深い偏見に基く憎悪に満ちたコメントを目撃しながら、自分は抗議できるにもかかわらず、黙っていた、ということを後々、多くの日本人に知られて恥ずかしくない、というなら、それはそれで、Mark さんの勝手ですから、それでいいでしょう。しかし、それは非常に残念なことだ、と思っているからこうしてコメントしているわけです。

    It is up to Mark in Yayoi.

    But it is an interesting reaction, a typical reaction of the Debito org supporter, that he protested against my comment which complained of the inappropriate comment on Debito org rather than posting the comment against that comment on Debito org (and Tepido org)

    もっとも、彼が私に対してコメントする以前にあのコメントに対して、有道ブログにコメントしていた、というなら、これについては撤回しますが・・・

     日本でも流行った、Sandel のJustice のなかに、友人の差別主義者対する忠義をとるか、反差別主義の原則をとるかの道義的ジレンマに陥ったらどうする?といった設問があったと思いますけど、マークさんがそれと似たようなジレンマに陥っているのかもしれない。 

     僕ならせめて脱退して、参加しません。参加するならそうしたヘイトスピーチに対して文句を言います。また、首謀者が友人であれば、やっていることで間違っていることは間違っている、とはっきりいいます。

    彼が黙認してきた有道ブログでの多くの間違ったことについては問いますまい。

    今回、そして、今後、Mark さんがどうでるか、見守りたいと思います。

  36. 空, I think you’re missing the point here. The focus on Mark seems entirely misguided. debito.org is a platform for promoting anti-Japanese racism. There’s no way any one person could try to counter each and every comment and still keep their sanity. If I were going to continue posting on that site, and I’m not sure why I would, I would be doing exactly as Mark is doing. Ignore the trolls, which is pretty much everyone, and post POV-neutral comments that don’t insult debito to avoid a ban.

    I mean his comment right before the one you posted is:
    “The article didn’t say if there were any special circumstances attached to his obtaining nationality. Debito, I know you’re going to disagree, but I personally hope that the Emperor himself stepped in to grant it to him. Keene is a living legend and academia and society are better for having him.”

    Based on your comments it seems you simply want him to cut all ties with the site? I really don’t know why anyone would continue posting over there, to be honest, but why go after the more reasonable posters?

    If you’re going to ask Mark why he didn’t respond to every racist comment on the blog, why not start with the comments by Jim Di Griz. That guy is a raving lunatic and gets free reign to say whatever he wants. Mark! Where were you! Why didn’t you call out Jim! Oh and MARK! Where were you when Fred posted! MARKKKK! REFUTE ALL THE POSTS!

    On a side note, I just find this whole topic about Mr. Keene hilarious. Donald Keene is probably one of, if not the most, famous scholars in Japanese studies. Our little man Debito is trying to criticize someone who has 4, count them – four, fucking national honors whom also decided to take Japanese citizenship. What a joke.

  37. Wow, Sora’s going right off the damn deep end here.

  38. @George:

    “If I were going to continue posting on that site, and I’m not sure why I would, I would be doing exactly as Mark is doing. Ignore the trolls, which is pretty much everyone, and post POV-neutral comments that don’t insult debito to avoid a ban.”

    That is a tricky point.

    No one can be sure if he ignores the trolls because he supports them OR because he wants to promote positive things, participating in the hate blog which he has no duty to join.

    As a non-white, I don’t want to associate with a regular participant of K.K.K who has never spoken against its hate speeches just as foreigners would not want to associate with a regular member of zaitokukai who has never spoken against its activism.

    “I really don’t know why anyone would continue posting over there, to be honest, but why go after the more reasonable posters?”

    Exactly because they look more reasonable. I expect them to act act reasonably.

    “If you’re going to ask Mark why he didn’t respond to every racist comment on the blog, why not start with the comments by Jim Di Griz. That guy is a raving lunatic and gets free reign to say whatever he wants. Mark! Where were you! ”

    Where were you, Mark!

    The longer you stay blind to the racist comments like that while participating in the group, the more you look exactly like them.

    Send the message to the people outside of the group that you are not like the bigots on the debito org despite the fact you have been a regular participant of the hate blog, turning a blind eye on the lies and the hate speech and the exclusionary policy of the blog.

  39. @:

    The main flaw in that that argument is that it assumes Debito hasn’t blocked any such messages from Mark. The only one’s that would know would be Mark and Debito and it is NOT up to Mark to confirm one way or the other.

    I don’t have a full grasp of what you are on about 空 but I think your attack on Mark is a bit out of line as well.

  40. @Shaun:

    Sora went off the deep end a long, long time ago. He shouldn’t even be in the room when the grownups are talking.

  41. I’ll make this clear. Mark has no responsibility to respond to the posters there, and his lack of a response does not mean he supports them. It’s Debito’s blog, and Mark has no control over it whatsoever. Mark has to carefully frame each and every one of his comments to make it through the debito.org hate filter, which while I think is a waste of time, means that he at least feels it important to put out opposing viewpoints within the tight framework of the posting rules there.

    I’m not the only one here thinking you’re going off on the deep end with this line of argument. Mark posts both here and there, which says a lot. You obviously want him to stop posting there, which will only make the site a bigger echo chamber than it already is.

    Why don’t you post on Debito’s blog to refute all the racist posts? You can’t? Because you were banned? Well that explains why a person like Mark can exist on that blog by posting the way he does. Maybe his refusals aren’t aggressive enough for your tastes, but currently between you and him, he’s the only one in a position to do exactly what you’re asking him to do.

  42. beneaththewheel

    Only writing now to give support to Mark in Yayoi. I do so because I believe Sora feels strongly about people voicing their opinions against injustice. :)

  43. Just quickly following up on the points/salary/age issue.

    I am over 40 years of age, an associate professor and my salary is approx 8 million (not at Todai). I easily score the required points.

    As someone mentioned (and thanks for providing the link) the UK has had to modify their system (or is currently in the process) as many academics earn less than the 35K threshold.

    So, from where I sit, the system is not particularly different from many other countries. I do appreciate, however, that some folks with a rather inflated sense of their own worth and entitlements feel somewhat indignant that a quantitative measure of their status reveals them to be not so desirable after all.

  44. @chuckers:

    The main flaw in that that argument is that it assumes Debito hasn’t blocked any such messages from Mark

    I assumed the possibility.
    To quote,

    Did you post the comment since then? Did Debito delete your comment? Or did he ban you?
    Let me know.

    “it is NOT up to Mark to confirm one way or the other.”

    But he can confirm it and tell it honestly to the public he was blocked if he was blocked.
    And if he was blocked, he has no reason to hide it.

    @George:

    ” Mark has no responsibility to respond to the posters there, and his lack of a response does not mean he supports them”

    That is what I argued against.

    Nobody can tell if he support them or not for sure. I for one tend to view a member and a regular participant of the hate group as an illicit supporter of the hate speech unless s/he gives the obvious message to that effect.
    He didn’t give voice when deibto fucked off the fair debaters. He didn’t speak up against the hate speeches though he has an easy access to speak against.He didn’t speak against the policy where the lies and hate speech come through easily while the comments telling the truth are blocked or only comes with Debito’s iyami.

    Now is he responsible to speak against them?

    Yes, it is debatable.

    Just because someone does not speak against, for instance, K.K.K, it does not mean he support it. But if he participate in the rally regularly, that’s another story.

    It is reasonable to assume that the regular participants support the project, the climate and the style of the group.No?

    It is only when someone thoroughly gives explicit criticism, the regular participant is free from being labeled as a supporter

    Just posting on Tepido org does not mean he does not support Debito’s project.

    Pro-debito or not, anti-sora or not, someone can post on Tepido org while anti-Debito posts will be banned on Debito org. Shaun and Mei Nona and Mark in Yayoi can say anything about me on Tepido org but they can’t say the similar thing about Debito and other bigots on Debito org. They can’t tell the hate speech on Debito org are out of line, the poster went off the dead end, the poster should take the comment back on Debito org;for that matter, they are not speaking against the lies and hate speeches on Debito org even outside of Debito org!! Instead they need to kiss Debito’s ass to let their comment come through.

    It is イヨーーな世界。

    So my contention is that if someone can easily speak up against it but he does not and if he keeps participating in the group, there is every reason to believe he is a supporter of the group;though, that does not mean he should be legally held responsible for, say, the crime the other members committed.

    Now it does not mean Mark in Yayoi realizes the implication of what he is doing and is not doing and how he will be viewed by many Japanese people. He sounds reasonable but it does not mean he understands fully what he is doing.
    That’s why I am warning him.

    “Mark posts both here and there, which says a lot. You obviously want him to stop posting there, which will only make the site a bigger echo chamber than it already is.”

    “You obviously want him to stop posting there, which will only make the site a bigger echo chamber than it already is.”

    He will not be responsible for making the site a bigger echo chamber than it already is even if he stop posting there.

    Remember nobody has duty to join the hate group.

    It is up to Mark in Yayoi. Let’s see how he will act. これまでも彼には責任の一端を担ってくださいとおねがいしてきた。He has been warned.

    .

  45. “(Mark) has been warned.”

    Jeezus…

    Act like a self-righteous prick much?

    Rhetorical question, you don’t need to answer. Because you already have.

  46. And if he was blocked, he has no reason to hide it.

    And he has no reason to report it, either.

    It is up to Mark in Yayoi. Let’s see how he will act. これまでも彼には責任の一端を担ってくださいとおねがいしてきた。He has been warned.

    “He has been warned”?! Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot, 空, who do you think you are? By what right are you issuing warnings? Warnings against what? “If you aren’t with us your against us” is that what you are saying? Who put you in charge? And, what did they put you in charge of?

    Come off your your high horse (or out of the clouds) and apologise.

  47. Might also be a distinction possible between being a ‘member’ of a group such as the KKK or zaitokukai, and ‘participating’ in debito.org by merely posting there. Is clicking on and reading debito.org, participating?

  48. @Mei Nona:

    Thanks.

    Shaun さんや、あなたのは議論ではない。

    単純で幼稚な人格中傷だ。

    Sorry, your comment is not an argument. It might work on Debito org. but I don’t know how to react.

    Yes, I am a selfish crazy gaijin out of line with anybody, thank you. Is that what you want?

    Mark in Yayoi さん。

     そもそもHate speechの類のコメントに対して、有道氏やMarkさんは、なんのコメントしないのか、とたずねるだけで、これだけの反応があるとは思ってもいなかった。

     そうしたHate speech の類のコメントに対する非難はなく、それを非難し、また、それを非難しないことを疑問視するコメントがかえって非難されるとは思ってもいなかった。

     Mark さんもあそこの投稿コメントの異様さに麻痺してしまっているのではないでしょうか?

    責任というのは、法的責任だけではない。道義的責任もある。

    ある種の不正が行われているときに、それに気づきながら何の抗議もしないことについての責任のあり方は議論のあるところであると思う。

     私も潔白ではない。例えば、世界に所得格差があり、貧困があり、自分ができることがあるのにやっていないことに対してちょっぴり罪悪感がある。

     今回の件については微妙なところであろう、と思う。Geroge さんは責任はない、という。We have to agree to disagree.

     私はあるヘイトグループの常連参加者としての責任の基準をのべた。

     この点に関しての見解不一致は致し方ない。あなたも私に同意する必要はない。しかし、私が思うあなたの責任と、あなたが今後日本人にどう思われるかについての私の見解を述べる道義的責任が老婆心ながら、私にはある、と思ったわけです。

     聞き届けられなければ残念です。

  49. @chuckers:

    And if he was blocked, he has no reason to hide it.
    And he has no reason to report it, either.

    He has every reason to report it at least when he was asked.

    ““He has been warned”?! Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot, 空, who do you think you are? ”

    Me? I am sora. substantially anonymous blogger on the internet. nothing more nothing less.I am surprised you didn’t know it.

    “By what right are you issuing warnings? ”

    I have every right to make speech and warning freely by giving reasons no?

    Warnings against what? ”

    Didn’t I say that.?

    責任の一端を担ってほしい、ということと、後日、ヘイトログの参加者で、嘘、ヘイトスピーチ、ヘイトスピーチ類の発言を黙認してきたひとに多くの日本人がどうした視線をむけるか、ということです。

    彼は、

    あの類のコメントについて認識している。
    あのブログの方針について認識している。
    容易にあの手のコメント、方針に、有道ブログで、そして他の場所で、抗議することができる、が、
    それをしない。
    あのブログの参加者である。

    その不作為について日本人の多くがどう思うであろうかについての帰結を引き受けることです。

    (しないどころか、非難しないことを疑問視するコメントの投稿者を誹謗するものまででてくる始末)

    “If you aren’t with us your against us” is that what you are saying?”

    That is not exactly what I am saying. Who are ”us” you are talking about?  I and Chuckers were “us”?

    @Cohiba:

    おっしゃるように、メンバーと参加者ではニュアンスがちがう。
    メンバー登録制度などがあって、メンバーとなれば、かなり賛同の度合いも高い、といえるでしょうし、単なる読者は参加者というわけにもいかない。

    しかし、長年の常連の参加者とまったく参加しない名目上のメンバーでは、賛同の度合いは、前者のほうが強いといえるのではないでしょうか?

  50. He has every reason to report it at least when he was asked.

    That is begging the question. He is under NO such obligation to do so.

    I have every right to make speech and warning freely by giving reasons no?

    Your warning mean nothing, then. Warnings are issued by people in authority. As you admit, you are a nobody anonymous blogger talking on someone ELSE’S blog. Your use of the word warning is incorrect and pointless.

    I don’t blame Mark if he doesn’t answer your question because you are not in a position to demand answers. Had he been participating on YOUR blog, things would be different.

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